Breath and Mantra

[Thed]

Hi all,
I used to do a mantra meditation and other types of meditation quite a few years ago and have just started up again after having found the AYP site… which is great btw.
My question is that in the previous meditation I was doing you were not supposed to coincide your breath and the Mantra, which feels very natural to me. In fact it feels clumsy and unnatural to try and avoid thinking the Mantra upon exhaling. Is this acceptable in AYP?

[Richard (Richard Oxley)]

Hi Thed welcome to the forum
In the AYP system we dont tie the breath to the mantra in any way see this lesson.
Mantra and breathing in meditation
Again welcome to this forum we are all here to help each other so keep the questions coming.
Wishing you every success in your chosen path
Richard

[Shanti (Mahasweta)]

Hi Thed,
Welcome to the forum…
Richard has given you good advice…
You can look into these threads… there have been some discussion on meditation and breath in these…
There is some good stuff in this one

Yogani said:
It is good that you are making the separation between mantra and breath ing now, as it will enable you to go much deeper.
Whenever we add a new practice or make a change, there will be that “clunky stage” in the beginning. After a while things smooth out. You will find it to be the case with this also. If you just treat the breath like any other thought, emotion or sensation, and easily favor the mantra when you realize you are off it, that will be correct practice and things will smooth out soon enough.
A rhythm with the mantra can be there, but it will change according to whatever is going on in our nervous system. Also, it can be quite clear in pronunciation or very fuzzy and indistinct, or practically nothing at all. We just easily go with it at whatever level it is, not forcing it to go one way or the other. We do not decide the mantra’s journey with any exterior bias. If we follow the procedure, the mantra will take us much deeper than any particular enforced rhythm, visualization or following the breath can.
At times there will be little to no breath when using the mantra in this easy way. We will be free of breath, and still going deeper far beyond breath, without even noticing it. Breathing stopping is not intentional (not a goal). It happens by itself without us doing anything with breath. It is the metabolism we are automatically slowing down in deep meditation, and the breath naturally follows.
Breath is a good follower in deep meditation like that. It is not a good leader in meditation. When breath is leading we are doing pranayama, and that has a different purpose than meditation. Pranayama can be very pleasant, ecstatic even, but we do not want to confuse that with meditation. We also do plenty with pranayama in AYP in other parts of our sitting practice. It is an important practice. But meditation and pranayama are separate practices with separate purposes. Pranayama is for cultivating ecstatic conductivity in the nervous system. It also paves the way, preparing the ground for deep meditation which goes much deeper, cultivating our inner silence. So there are two purposes which have profound long term results if developed in that way. That is why Patanjali has these two elements as separate limbs in the eight limbs of yoga.
Wishing you all the best on your path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.

Also this one has some good stuff…

David said:
yes I do have some suggestions which I think might be quite helpful in your
case.
You are probably very tuned to paying attention to your breath after those
years of experience. You may need a little re-habituation.
I’d suggest beginning your meditation with saying your mantra out loud, at
whatever pace seems natural. Then ‘get lazy’ and let it get quieter and go to a
whisper and to nothing, while you still follow it with your mind. It could take a
few minutes to get to this point where you are externally silent.
Try starting your meditations this way. See if it helps to rehabituate you. It
may take several months to get rehabituated, so be patient. If and when
starting out loud no longer serves you, don’t bother with it.
That’s one thing.
Now here’s another.
During meditation itself, don’t sweat about this. The mantra deserves your
attention. This issue does not. Allow yourself to be lazy about your breath,
but favor your mantra. Who cares about your breath? It will take care of itself.
The mantra is nice and soft and easy, isn’t it?

Hope these help.
Wish you all the best in your chosen path…

[Thed]

Thanks all.
I hadn’t made it down to those lessons yet.
Well… this will take some time to adjust to. Old habits…
But if I could use a Nordic track I can ignore the breath and focus on the mantra. Some good suggestions on how to go about that too.
Thanks again. So much information here.

[Scott]

You need a Nordic trac to meditate?

[Thed]

Lol… no.
I mean to say that some people find it difficult coordinating arms and legs when using a nordic track. I have a hard time NOT coordinating mantra and breath, but no problem with a nordic track.
I don’t have a nordic track anymore, but if you think it would help…

[Doc (Doc Stier)]

Breathing is normally an autonomous physical function for all of us, which automatically adjusts its speed and volume to our mental and physical activities, unless consciously directed to perform otherwise. Breath patterns are modified according to need, in most instances, without any deliberate mental exertion or intervention required. This is how our breathing will also behave when practicing mantra japa, if we allow it to do so.
All too often, for example, attempts to consciously force a specific breath pattern to synchronize with a mantra through the course of an entire round or more of practice with a japa mala, succeeds only in reducing the japa yoga to an uncomfortable and counterproductive breath exercise. I have found this to also be true in most instances when practicing hatha asanas, or when meditating, and likewise, particularly during extended practice sessions in which straining is likely at some point.
That having been said, we also know that there are some short-term activities in which it is definitely best to incorporate a consciously coordinated breath pattern. Examples would include lifting heavy objects and swimming underwater. These are ‘no brainers’, right?
Similarly, I believe that there are definite physical benefits to be derived from practicing a small number of mantra repetitions with synchronized breathing. This super-charges the oxygen and prana of the inhaled air with the vibrational resonancy of the mantram, and the blood into which these are absorbed through the blood vessels of the lungs during breath retention. The prana, oxygen, and blood which has been attuned to the mantra in this way, then carries that vibrational energy dynamically to all parts of the body through the blood vessels and the energy nadis for optimum health and healing benefits.
Once the body has been attuned to the mantram’s vibrational frequency in this way, it subconsciously strives to automatically and spontaneously harmonize the breathing patterns, and all other physiological functions, with the mantra’s vibrational pattern. There is then no further need to mentally direct the process in any way. This is sort of like setting computer programs to automatically function for optimum efficiency by maximizing short term input for optimum long term output!
Om! Sat-Chit-Anandam Brahman!
Doc

[yogani]

@Doc

All too often, for example, attempts to consciously force a specific breath pattern to synchronize with a mantra through the course of an entire round or more of practice with a japa mala, succeeds only in reducing the japa yoga to an uncomfortable and counterproductive breath exercise. I have found this to also be true in most instances when practicing hatha asanas, or when meditating, and likewise, particularly during extended practice sessions in which straining is likely at some point.

Hi All:
This is why in AYP we do spinal breathing pranayama and deep meditation in sequence instead of in parallel. The two practices are doing two different things, and are not compatible when done at the same time.
It is the distinction between cultivating inner silence (shiva) and cultivating ecstatic conductivity (shakti). These are separate neurobiological phenomena which mingle and merge after they have arisen.
As for mantras in spinal breathing, likewise, they are left out to maintain the simplicity and efficiency of the practice. In the AYP approach we are dealing with chakra (energy center) and nadi (subtle nerve) purification and opening in a variety of ways, with still more ways to come. So the resonance of chakras and nadis will be there in spinal breathing, in other practices, and in our normal daily activity, with the last being the proof of the pudding – all occurring “under the hood,” of course.
The guru is in you.

[riptiz (Dave Moore)]

Hi,
Yes some mantras can be used with the breath but normally they are used for a particular purpose. In Kundalini Maha Yoga the bija akshars are used specifically with spinal breathing down to each associated chakra of the specific bija. This technique originated in Tantra and was ‘borrowed’ many years ago to become normal practice in KMY. However it is not an attempt to syncronise breath and mantra for the aim of meditation as it would not be meditation due to it’s technique of concentration.
If we look at it further in the context of meditation we can see that as the respiration rate falls due to the effect of meditation we would need to adjust the rate of the mantra.Meditation does not look for pointed concentration on the mantra but only gentle focus to reintroduce the mantra when we become aware we have stopped repeating it.As experiences of states of meditation vary generally in three ways.
1)the busy thoughts which drive us mad and disallow us to keep the mantra for any length of time which are normally regarded as cleansing times.
2)The ‘halfway’ where we commonly drift into deep meditation and resurface, only to keep dipping into and resurfacing regularly.
3)Yoga Nidra(commonly called Yogi blackout)where we sink into deep meditation with little recollection of our meditation times.(normally regarded as when we enter into the superconscious state.)
Now if in (1) we attempt to syncronise breath and mantra we will find further tension simply because we are trying to keep breath and mantra together and we are already experiencing difficulty keeping the mantra.This is often the most difficult state of meditation because it is especially important to let go and allow the meditation process to give effect.Focusing on anything is difficult in this state as thoughts invade our minds and attemt to distract us.
In (2) we have a mix of the two where we easily keep the mantra and then disappear or we have the spontaneous thoughts driving us mad so needing us to simply let go.
In (3) we could start syncronisation which in effect would probably stop us entering Yoga Nidra because we are not letting go to the natural process.If we do enter Yoga Nidra then the whole exercise becomes irrelevant because we have no recollection of breath, mantra or even existence! Very difficult to syncronise anything in that state.
When my guru is in this state she only breathes about 4 times/minute which would make it impossible(even if you were conscious)to make the mantra last this long in your mind.Imagine trying to say a mantra only 4 times/minute without a break, thats once in 15 seconds continually. I seriously doubt that is possible on a conscious level.
Incidentally when I first teach meditation I actually teach focus on the breath through the nose and diaphragm to allow the student to relearn the natural(and correct) way of breathing. Once I give them a mantra I teach them to focus on the mantra and the breath will take care of itself.The important thing is that one is breathing correctly first.If one breathes correctly and attempts to breathe this way in all walks of life they will find a difference in many ways.
L&L
Dave

[Doc (Doc Stier)]

@yogani

“…we do spinal breathing pranayama and deep meditation in sequence instead of in parallel. The two practices are doing two different things, and are not compatible when done at the same time.
These are separate neurobiological phenomena which mingle and merge after they have arisen.”

I completely agree with this view, since the long-term experience of my own Sadhana confirms that this is certainly true, just as I was also taught. Pranayama (breathwork) and Dhyana (meditation) both contribute to spiritual progress towards Union with Brahman within the Great Ocean of Consciousness, eventually merging in such Samadhi Union, along with all other aspects of Yoga Sadhana, but don’t generally do so through simultaneous practice or occurance.
It is interesting, however, to observe energetic overlays in the manifested expressions of the two methods while practiced separately…confirming their mutual contributions to a self-disciplined Sadhana. As the yogi/yogini explores profound modifications of Consciousness through Focused Concentration(Dharana), Deep Meditation (Dhyana), and eventual Union with God (Samadhi), breath patterns definitely change along the way to match the neurological, physiological, and psychological fluctuations in the altered states of consciousness (Jivatman). Conversely, the rhythmical breath pattern cycles of various pranayama techniques usually generate a more focused concentration of the mind, and a decidedly meditative mental state as practice skills improve. What’s not to like? It’s all good!
http://kheper.net/topics/chakras/kundalini.jpg
Hari OM!
Doc

[yogani]

[quote=“Doc”]

quote: [/quote]It is interesting, however, to observe energetic overlays in the manifested expressions of the two methods while practiced separately....confirming their mutual contributions to a self-disciplined Sadhana. As the yogi/yogini explores profound modifications of Consciousness through Focused Concentration(Dharana), Deep Meditation (Dhyana), and eventual Union with God (Samadhi), breath patterns definitely change along the way to match the neurological, physiological, and psychological fluctuations in the altered states of consciousness (Jivatman). Conversely, the rhythmical breath pattern cycles of various pranayama techniques usually generate a more focused concentration of the mind, and a decidedly meditative mental state as practice skills improve. :sunglasses: What's not to like? :stuck_out_tongue: It's all good! :grin:

---

Hi Doc: Sounds good to me. :slight_smile: The last three of the eight limbs of yoga you mentioned above (dharana, dhyana & samadhi) also come together in the practice of Samyama. Don't know if you have seen those AYP lessons yet. If not, you might want to take a look at [#149](http://www.aypsite.org/149.html), [#150](http://www.aypsite.org/150.html), and the lessons that follow. The next AYP book coming out is on Samyama also, looking at it from more angles than we have so far, for additional practical applications. The options really open up as we experience more abiding inner silence (the witness), which increases our ability to relax or surrender into the infinite within us, and act from that level. There are profound implications in this for everyday living. The fruit of Samyama is "stillness in action," or "outpouring divine love." It is expressed natually through our actions. It is the merging of inner silence with the divine ecstatic flow in all that we do. What happens with the breath in Samyama, and in this kind of daily activity? Sometimes we breathe, and sometimes breath stops. Breath effortlessly follows the flow of divine consciousness as reflected in the metabolism. How sweet it is. :sunglasses: The guru is in you.

[Doc (Doc Stier)]

@yogani

The fruit of Samyama is “stillness in action,” or “outpouring divine love.” It is expressed natually through our actions. It is the merging of inner silence with the divine ecstatic flow in all that we do.
Breath effortlessly follows the flow of divine consciousness…
How sweet it is.
The guru is in you.

Hello yogani!
Amen to that, Brother! All of Life is Yoga when the Sweet Nectar of Eternal Light and Unconditioned Love within the Supreme Presence is allowed to fill each moment with that beautiful flow of Divine Consciousness!
http://www.ella-communication.com/view_pic.aspx?NoProd=140&W=289&H=400&Lang=Eng
Hari OM!
Doc

[Thed]

When I do this it’s not a conscious thing.
In fact I have a hard time not doing it… it’s a very hard habit to break. I think what I’m doing is as the air travels over the vocal chords on exhalation it helps me form the mantra in my mind. I also partially close my epiglottis, sort of like I read about the spinal breathing. Not wanting to over think this but I’d like to get off to a good start this time too.

[whatcanyoudo]

I had meditated on breath for six months before adopting AYP mantra approach. Now my breath wants to follow mantra or perhaps the other way around. Actively trying to keep them separate is of course a distraction from mantra. Do I just let it follow if it wants to?

[Dogboy (Michael)]

It always comes back staying lightly with the mantra and surrendering everything, including attention that your breath is synchronized. It’s just another wayward leaf in the wind.

[Yogaman (George)]

See my earlier post here, I was in the same boat as you: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14530