Why not leave the manta out, and let your meditation be “just leting go of all thoughts and staying in that space”. You could still build the rest of the practice around that, asanas, spinal breathing, bastrika, samyama, sivasana etc. I know that mantra meditation has a lot of benefits that silent meditation does not have (to do with vibrational resonances in the subtle nervous system), but if you have a hard time with mantras, then it could make your practice a lot more enjoyable.
You could always add the mantra in later if you want to, when it feels like the time is right.
L&L
Christi
Katrina,
I agree with Christi in every way. If you have some ability to ‘let go of thoughts’ (which not everyone has, BTW) explore that for a while. Consider adding in the mantra later. even “I AM” keeps me on the level of thinking(aboutthis forum…Yogani…am i doing this right…etc…).
The above effect is probably only a temporary glitch, so I would not permanently rule out mantra-meditation because of it.
Hi Katrina, and welcome!
As you no doubt know, thoughts (regardless of content) in deep meditation are part of the process, and easily favoring the mantra will take us beyond thinking again and again like clockwork. If we come right back into thoughts, that is purification happening, and we easily come back to the mantra again. This is a proactive process of going beyond thinking that gradually leads to permanent inner silence, something that takes much longer to cultivate by passive (non-mantra/mindfulness) meditative means. In fact, mindfulness techniques typically involve much longer sessions. It can be done either way. It is a matter of how much we’d like to accomplish with the time we have available, and also how much time and attention we’d like to have available to move on to additional techniques that can further enhance our rate of progress.
Here in AYP, it is all about effectiveness and efficiency. Of course, our preferences and natural style have to be honored as well. We each have our own road to travel, and we pick our own roadmaps.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
hi Katrina,
I am very similar in my feelings to the mantra as yourself and often prefer to just rest in silence.But Im sure the mantra does a lot of work deep down if practised.
bets wishes.
chris
Hi Katrina and Chris,
I’ve started reading Secrets of Wilder just recently, and though I haven’t gotten very far into it yet, the description of how the i am is taught to Devi Duran, and how she practises it for the first time somehow or other “clicked” better with me, although I can’t say that for the book itself as yet (The format takes some getting used to… )
It is almost as if it is not only thinking “i am” but becoming truly aware of it (consciously focussing the awareness on it as well ) and becoming one with that awareness, in other words trying to conscously be wholly with the i am thought as it were.
Or expressed differently: not as if you are you and there is a thought “i am” you are watching, but you the watcher starts to relate to the thought I Am and bond with it in union. Well, this describing it myself may be entirely clumsy, but… my meditations have been soaring to new levels since then!!
Thank you all for your replies.
I only came across this website a week ago,so have to admit i haven’t given the mantra a fair go yet.
I will try practicing it for a few weeks, then post my experiences here.
…(Would like to add a smiley face here,but can’t find one!)
You are right… silent meditation does take a lot longer (in each sitting) than mantra meditation, so coupled with other practices, it could be a time consuming task.
I want to ask a question about mantra meditation, but first I should confess that I have been doing the mantra meditation completely wrong from the outset. I misread this section when I was working through the main lessons. I thought that the aim was to recite the mantra a few times mentally, and then let it go to silence, and then after a while, pick it up again for a few repetitions, and then let it go to silence again. I am not quite sure how I got this idea (I am not the brightest of people), but this is what I have been doing since I started AYP practices more than 18 months ago. I recently re-read the first few lessons and realized that I had it wrong all along, but now I find it hard to change. But anyway, on with the question:
This is what often happens to me during the 20 minute IAM meditation (or my version of it anyway ):
I do the mantra repetitions and let it fall into silence, and repeat that a few times. After a while it feels like something starts to descend from above me and fall slowly through my body. At the same time it feels like my face starts to squash into my brain, like someone has given me a general anaesthetic that hasn’t been properly tested yet. My mind becomes very expansive and I start to loose awareness of my body. It is very peaceful and blissful. To think anything at all is a real effort, and seems like it would detract from the bliss. Also, reciting the mantra seems like it would take a lot of effort and would disturb the equilibrium and silence. At this point I stop reciting the mantra. I have a vague feeling of, “the mantra is designed to bring about inner silence, this is very inner and very silent, so for this 20 minutes at least, it has done its job”.
Am I on the right track here? Or would you say that this is just the moment when the mantra would be most effective, and I should drag myself up from my anaesthetized bliss state and keep it going?
Christi
Welcome to the forum Katrina…
There are 2 ways to reply …
One is by clicking on the “Reply to Topic”… and here you can insert smileys and play with colors and fonts or
second is to type in a reply in the quick reply box… where you don’t have access to any of these.
Thanks for joining us.
Wish you all the best in your chosen path and hope you get hooked to “i am”…
Hi Christi,
I am sure Yogani will give you a very good reply… " Or would you say that this is just the moment when the mantra would be most effective, and I should drag myself up from my anaesthetized bliss state and keep it going?"
If you are following “i am” meditation… AYP style… the min you realize you are off the mantra… you come back to it… so the answer to your above question is yes… sorry!!! But no matter how lovely the visions are, or how blissful the mental state is… or how much of inner silence you are enjoying… if you realize you are off the mantra … go back to it…
Yogani explain the reason for this in his lessons… and there have been other discussions in the forum on it… I can look them up for you later… if you’d like… Or just search on “losing the mantra”…
This is something I have thought about also. Neither approach, as you describe them, seems to be entirely in line with AYP deep meditation as it is taught in the lessons. In AYP we don’t care if we are “becoming one with that awareness” of the mantra or “are you and there is a thought “i am” you are watching”. If we do either approach we are adding to the simple procedure of just doing the mantra. During the meditation itself we don’t care about anything, except just doing the mantra. That may not be easy, since in daily life we are so used to care about doing things with a desired outcome as the objective. During the meditation itself there is no objective.
If it happens that we become absorbed in the mantra it’s fine. This may be what is happening in your case, that you naturally become one with the mantra. But if it happens that we are apart from the mantra, that’s fine also. Over time, we will find that the mantra will refine by itself and there will be residing inner silence, even if we repeat the mantra on a very fine level. But it has to happen by itself, we don’t try to refine the mantra. Eventually, this process will take us beyond thought.
It is good to hear that your meditation is going well!
.
Hi Shweta,
Thanks for the reply.
You are right that in the main lessons it does say to favour the mantra whatever. (I am not really one to comment on the main lessons, as I seem to see different things when I read them than everyone else does ). I just had a feeling that maybe this could be different, which is why I asked the question. I did as you sudjested and did a search on “losing the mantra”, and it came up with a thread from Dec 2005. In the thread Weaver had asked almost exactly the same thing. In his reply Yogani said not to keep reciting the mantra in this case, unless the mind moves away from absorbtion and into thoughts again. Here is the link: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=678
Here is the relevant section of Yoganis’ reply for anyone interested. (I found it very useful). (I thought I would post it here so that Yogani doesn’t need to answer the same question twice).
I never thought we were going to agree on anything, but just look at that! . Who would have guessed?. I think we may have a lot more in common than we first realized
L&L
Christi
Hi Christi,
My point was.. if at any point you realize you are off your mantra.. then pick it up.. if you are completely absorbed in your blissful state and don't realize it consciously.. then there is no question of coming back to the mantra.. because you don't know you are off of it now do you? :slight_smile:
Well, at least that is my understanding of the process... all you guys are way ahead in the bliss land.. so maybe once I am there I will know what you are talking about.. :stuck_out_tongue:
Enjoy... :sunglasses:
Hi Christi:
Good advice from all, and thank you for finding that old post of mine. It saves me some writing.
I would only reemphasize that picking up the mantra on whatever level we find ourselves is the key to avoiding that disjointed feeling of being settled (in silence) and yanking ourselves out into a clear mental pronuciation of the mantra. As we advance, picking up the mantra becomes more and more virtually in silence itself – very faint and fuzzy. This phenomenon of being both in and out of inner silence at the same time is also at the heart of samyama practice.
This does not mean trying to begin the mantra as faint and fuzzy when we are on the surface level of our thoughts, or as a beginning practitioner. We pick it up where we are. Over time of daily practice (months and years), the mind and nervous system become more infused with silence all the time – a natural vehicle for it. As this happens, we find our starting point in deep meditation (and life in general) to be much more in silence. That is the fruit of deep meditation, and it leads to many other benefits in both practices and experiences. I still have not gotten them all written down!
But AYP deep meditation practice itself is pretty solidly documented now. For more perspective and clarity on the practice, try the little Deep Meditation book.
The guru is in you.
Weaver:
thank you, I understand! I think, because you say : “not caring about anything else but the mantra in meditation”, which seems to me almost the same thing I tried to say, being with it, fully, wholly, focussing only on that, pfeww, words,… and getting absorbed in it is the other phrase I should use then, but there is something else, this concentration of the awareness becomes one with the inner and expands and moves about, the I and the movement within is one at a certain stage, (which yes is blissful) but maybe that’s the same thing as absorption? pfeww, words again…[ , But you are right and Yogani is confirming it, the mere fact that I train myself (and it goes of itself now) to pick up the mantra again the moment I am aware of having lost it (after the absorption), is in fact the entire safehold for me, I have had crazy experiences of thinking I will get into a coma entirely in deep meditation, just totally loosing it, into non existence, (I can’t help it, I can’t find another phrase, and it scared me[ nothing blissful about it and then jumping out, so this focussing on simply picking up the mantra is just fantastic as it helps entirely. And thanks again Yogani for that idea that I am now learning indeed to pick it up at the faintest level it is, AT THE EDGE (was that the word from Secrets of Wilder?) as it were, preventing indeed the disjointed feeling… I’m off for a few days, have a great weekend all!
I practiced TM for many years before turning to ayp and i have to say that i do not find the ayp mantra to be as effective. Maybe it’s just a personal thing but my TM mantra seems to bring better experiences and inner tranquility into my life so even though i found ayp to be very nice and sincere i am personally refering back to the path i was on before. Why i found the need to change in the first place i will never know but it taught me a lesson i will never forget… god bless and good luck!
Hi Universal Mind,
I originally received TM initiation in 1994, and practiced it intermittently (sometimes with significant dedication) for several years.
I also received Kriya Yoga initiation in 2002, after practicing the initial meditation practices (mantra meditation, essentially identical to TM, except for the mantra being different) taught by the Kriya-related sangha (community) I was connected with (Ananda; offshoot group of the Self-Realization Fellowship - both of which teach the Kriya and meditation practices developed by Paramahansa Yogananda).
In late 2004, or early 2005, I started AYP.
I experienced greater results in 6 months of AYP, than I did with the combined total of TM & Kriya Yoga.
Results that were greater by a LOT.
Within a year of practicing AYP, I experienced results greater than I knew to be possible with meditation and yoga practices.
Within two years of practicing AYP, I experienced results greater than I was capable of imagining to be possible for anyone. In any way. Period.
Since then (another yearish to twoish ) tracking “results” has become much less important; there’s too much resting in the bliss of clear-awareness to be enjoyed — always complete, yet always freshly opening and continuing.
Has it been like that for two years?
Not exactly, but there’s not much inclination to reflect on the specifics; it’s more like that, than not like that – especially recently – though even the very idea of “recently” feels like kind of an odd idea (time is only as rigid as it’s thought to be; ditto everything else.)
Simply Put:
AYP Works.
All The Way.
My opinion?
No.
My experience.
I don’t know of anyone (and I’m not saying they’re not “around” – I just literally don’t know of anyone) who experiences significant realization as a result of TM.
I know at least a handful who have practiced AYP all the way home.
To put it as mildly as language allows:
I have found, and continue to see, AYP as being staggeringly superior to any other set of yoga/meditation practices available, as evaluated by the only criteria that matters.
Have you realized?
Why/How is AYP staggeringly superior (“superior” = more effective, in terms of realization-rich results) to other systems?
I don’t actually know — although I do have what I feel is a solid hypothesis:
TM is focused on mantra meditation, which has been proven to help in the facilitating of enlightenment for several millenia now, all over the world.
Kriya Yoga is focused on pranayama, which has been proven to help in the facilitating of enlightenment, for several millenia now, all over the world.
I have seen a lot of people with years of experience in both these systems, who kind of hit a plateau of feeling a bit of peace/silence when then meditate; maybe some interesting energy or bodily stuff (i.e. the hopping/flying of TM-Sidhi, the visions and ecstasy of Kriya Yoga - saturating blood-oxygen levels can indeed create some interesting highs) - but no ongoing opening and expansion of awareness, per se.
Especially when experiences have a certain excitement value - they can offer the illusion of being valuable yogic results.
In actuality, there’s only one valuable yogic result.
Yoga.
Unity.
Awakening.
Enlightenment.
So - what makes AYP different/better/staggeringly superior?
3 Things (in my Kirtanmaniacal Hypothesis) –
Rather than focusing on pranayama or mantra meditation alone, AYP teaches the balanced integration of both pranayama (aka spinal breathing) and mantra meditation (aka deep meditation).
AYP teaches Self-Pacing – something I have never seen or heard discussed in any other system. The monitoring and adjustment of practices is amazing in its power to maintain the balance that is critical to making it through the straight and narrow way leading to enlightenment. And, as far as I know, self-pacing is unique to AYP (in every other system I’ve seen, it’s either organization-directed, guru-directed, or senior-disciple directed pacing … or no pacing).
AYP teaches balanced integration of other facets and pillars of yoga - bhakti (devotion), jnana (inquiry) and so on – as opposed to most other schools and systems, which are either caught up in the cultural prejudices of their religion, their school, or their guru’s ideas – or, due to one or more of these factors, very unbalanced and caught in delusions (i.e. bhaktas that won’t recognize unitive awareness, because “God” is always “other”; shaktas who are all about the energy only, and tend to fry themselves or delude themselves; “traditional” yogis who show that yoga can be fundamentalist and dogmatic – and you don’t even need that many wrong ideas to make it that way).
Are there other systems that work?
Of course. But they often involve living in a monastery, or renouncing this, that, or the other thing - or everything, except renouncement itself.
And if they don’t involve living in a monastery, they often involve several to quite-a-few years of a very bumpy ride (I’m thinking of Zen … it works, sure … but it seems a lot like driving on a bumpy country road with no shocks – half the joy of arriving is the ending of the bumpiness of the ride!) <- I’ve heard this from Zen practitioners, or those who “awakened out of Zen” - specifically Adyashanti).
And in the end, I’ve used a lot of words to express a simple reality:
AYP Works.
All the way home.
Just one yogi’s experience.
Intending the Awakening of All,
Kirtanman
Hello Again Universal Mind,
A few more thoughts on your comparison of “mantric effectiveness” which may be helpful.
Any new mantra takes a bit of time to adjust to – so it might be helpful to note how much time you gave to evaluating the AYP mantra, exclusively.
6 months? A year? Two years?
If less than 6 months – you may want to give it a bit more time to integrate/work for you.
Especially if you’ve used the TM mantra you received for years, as you say - because years will integrate a mantra into your body-mind/energies, in ways that a 6 month “surface test” of another mantra cannot do.
Also, as I said in my other post to you:
The power of the integration of pranayama (spinal breathing) and mantra meditation (deep meditation) together cannot be overrated, in my experience – especially when coupled with self-pacing.
If you practice AYP for 6 months - “practice AYP” meaning spinal breathing and meditation, as taught in the AYP lessons – I’ll be surprised if you return to TM at the end of 6 months.
If you practice AYP for a year, and return to TM – I’ll be shocked.
It’s not that the mantra (I AM/AYAM) is “better” - and it’s not that anything is wrong with TM … it’s about the synthesis … the integration … of the pieces.
It’s the integration/synthesis of practices and approach which makes it staggeringly more effective than either TM or Kriya Yoga, in my experience.
And, finally … meditation and yoga isn’t about inner tranquility or experiences.
Staying at that level is like being handed access to two checking accounts - one with a hundred dollars in it, which depletes as you spend it, and the other with three million dollars which replenishes with two dollars for every dollar you spend … and ignoring the second account, even though it’s “all yours”, too.
Meditation and yoga is about waking up to the reality of enlightenment - and the enlightening of reality.
Enlightenment is real.
Enlightenment is all that’s real.
AYP works.
All the way home.
Intending the Awakening of All,
Kirtanman
):
and play with colors and fonts or
). I just had a feeling that maybe this could be different, which is why I asked the question. I did as you sudjested and did a search on “losing the mantra”, and it came up with a thread from Dec 2005. In the thread Weaver had asked almost exactly the same thing. In his reply Yogani said not to keep reciting the mantra in this case, unless the mind moves away from absorbtion and into thoughts again. Here is the link:
Hypothesis) –