Thanks for making this point, David - it’s an important one.
Adya, to his credit (imo), has at least tried (in the past) to avoid this dynamic (by pointing out the tendency, to everyone) - but he eventually concluded, per what he publicly said, “It’s gonna happen - and each of us needs to simply maintain our awareness, so that we don’t delude ourselves and others into thinking that the teacher is someone special.”
Similar comments from Adya, in the same general “vein”:
“It’s all costumes and roles - I’m the ‘teacher-guy’, and everyone focuses on me, as the ‘enlightened one’; but it’s not about me. It’s not about you, either. That’s the whole point. One means one. Everything said here is to help you awaken to the reality of your true nature. Period.”
(Referring - next statement - to a satsang led together with his wife, Annie / Mukti)
“We only sit up front so you can us; we only sit up front so you can see us.”
(As in: not because we’re the enlightened “models” for you to revere / copy / follow.)
And said even more directly, in the same satsang (during a weekend gathering, focused on Love and Relationships - and their place in an awakened / enlightened life) …
“Don’t hold us, or our lives, or our marriage, up as models of anything. If you do, you’re missing the entire point. The only thing that matters is the level of consciousness you bring to the relationships in your life. Period.”
(Indicating a satsang attendee, who was engaged in dialog with Adya, by motioning his own hand from himself, to the other guy, back-and-forth.)
“You - me - same. Same. Not different. One. Same.”
(Usually said when someone - as in this cases - indicates that they’re feeling this, too - or beginning to.)
Some of us (several of whom I know personally, and including myself) who have been involved with Adyashanti’s teachings for some time, shudder a bit at the “Adyashanti Show” thing - and respond accordingly (by attending satsangs less often, and/or not engaging in Adya-consumerism, and buying a copy of everything he’s ever breathed on, etc. 
)
I used to buy every tape of Adya’s, after each satsang, etc. etc. – like the unconcious light-fiend (as opposed to “dope fiend”) that I was, at the time. It’s a phase that many of us pass through, and ultimately can be a helpful one (by enabling us to see the contrast in what “real awakening” can look like, as opposed to “sheep-like, pretend awakening” (and nothing against buying anyone’s tapes or books - especially AYP tapes or books … – and seriously: as within anything else, it’s about the inner essence of what prompts the action, rather than the external form of that action.)
Recently, I was more in the mode of attending Adya’s satsangs simply to be in his presence (not really caring what was said; the verbal content of the teaching mattered little, or not at all).
And please know - I understand that this could “raise red flags”, or start the “deluded follower” klaxons … klaxoning … … at high volume – which is the key reason I’m honestly sharing it: in my own experience, this dynamic (“subtle shaktipat”, just by sitting with Adyashanti) was experienced as being both conscious and useful. However, as always: comments and alternate views are welcome (as are supporting views, additional thoughts, etc. – that’s why we call this a Forum, yes? 
).
So, it was simply my experience that, having become much more sensitive to subtle energies in recent times, I became aware that there is a very real energy emanating from any fully awakened teacher - and to a lesser, but similar extent - from any teacher or person (presumably, though I have only experienced it from / with teacher or guru-types) who has attained a certain level of awakening.
As Adyashanti has very helpfully pointed out, at essence, this (shaktipat-like dynamic - whether overt or subtle) does not involve an actual transfer of energy from the teacher/guru, to the student/event attendee. It’s as if the teacher plucks a guitar-string, on a guitar sitting in his own lap – which then creates resonance (vibration) in the corresponding guitar string / note … on the guitar, sitting in the lap of the other person.
As In: One value of the guru, is that he/she can help us to experience, and become more aware of the real guru that is in (each of) us.
And so, in that sense - it all became much less about the “Adyashanti Show” for me, a while back.
Another personal “sign”, which I’m experiencing as positive, is that having been absent from the Bay Area for about a month-ish, now - there’s zero sense of wanting or needing an “Adyashanti fix” - it was fine when I lived in the same area as most of Adyashanti’s satsangs, and it’s fine, now.
Getting all FGB (Full-Goose Bozo ) over the form of one’s guru, can be a powerful practice of guru kripa (though is very much a double-edged sword, and often experienced less-than-consciously, and less-than-helpfully, in terms of the sadhaka’s presumed goal of Realization).
However, A. I’ve never really felt drawn to that practice, other than feeling a sense of heart-centered reverence an appreciation for all spiritual teachers and divine beings, historical or symbolic/archetypal (i.e. Shiva, Krishna, Jesus, etc.) <– and please note: “symbolic/archetypal” doesn’t mean not real (necessarily) - it simply means “possibly experienced at levels of consciousness more subtle than the physical / historical”, and B. Adyashanti is not my guru in any sense, though as Adya said recently, to another sangha member who expressed an ongoing sense of connection with Adyashanti, when he’d moved away, “The bridge is always there.”
It’s not a “bow to the teacher, because they have the consciousness” thing, it’s “gratitude to the teacher, because they’re willing to share / express the consciousness – igniting realization of its inherent existence within” thing - which I see as being predicated upon a relatively significant degree of love, real love (not emotional dysfunction or ego-worship, masquerading as love) - on the part of the given teacher and student (or guru and devotee - whatever terms apply).
Ultimately, and I simply “submit this for your consideration” - I don’t know that it makes sense to even try to judge or evaluate any dynamics related to perception of “the Adyashanti show” (or the “{Pick Your Teacher} Show”) – only because (personal opinion here, completely) - I would see the chances of tripping up and landing flat on our … ego, and/or simply being wrong, about what others may be experiencing (including the teacher) - as being as great, or greater - than the chances of being “right” in any ways that would have actual value for us, and/or our sadhana.
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
REPEAT OF KIRTANMAN QUOTING ADYASHANTI DISCLAIMER THINGY
And once again, everyone - please note - the quotes I give are very close paraphrases, but not necessarily verbatim quotes - because most statements I’m almost-quoting ) are from my own memory of Adya’s audio tapes I heard some while back, and/or live events with Adyashanti, which I attended personally. The one pertinent facet of my almost-quoting, that I am completely confident in, is: per my long term familiarity with Adya and his teachings, I don’t think there’s any danger of my mis-conveying the general style, tone, idea or essence behind a paraphrased statement of Adya’s, which is part of one of my posts.
Though I could be completely deluded about that. And/or anything else.
And so, please note: my only reason for paraphrase-quoting Adyashanti in this thread (or elsewhere in the AYP Forum), is because that I have personally found that Adyashanti’s statements can be useful pointers, in connection with whatever context they are made – to pointing us in the direction, at least, which will help us to see life / Reality as it is.
Thanks, Meg — great comments, all - thanks!
And yes, I do want to know what I “sound like” - primarily so that I can be clear in my communication.
My goal truly isn’t to “defend” Adyashanti (and the feeling-tone within me doesn’t feel like that, nor do my mental processes go through the familiar defense-dance that they often do, in other situations which trigger my ego, in those kinds of ways).
My goal is actually to respond to a given post, either by agreeing and commenting (where applicable), or disagreeing and commenting (where applicable).
In the areas / at the times when I disagree, I’m attempting to simply say that, based on my experience with Adyashanti, and what I know him to have expressed - “these are the reasons” why I respectfully disagree.
With regard to Yogani’s comments “check back in ten years”, and my response, which resulted in the “cultic thinking” post from David - my comments were not made in the sense of “Accept Adya, and be saved!” - but rather in the sense that, respecting “checking back in ten years”, regarding anything or anyone – that our ego-minds will likely have changed more OR simply affect our perception more, at the time of "“said reconsideration” - to a greater degree - than whatever is going on with the object of our consideration, at that time.
Example: If I check back in ten years, and have become a fundamentalist, born-again Christian (“unlikely at best”, I hope to God … ) – my perception of Adyashanti, at that time (unless he has also become a born-again Christian) - will likely be VERY different than if (for instance) Enlightenment has occurred in this body-mind, during that intervening period of time – regardless of anything actually going on with Adyashanti, at that time.
I was basically agreeing with Yogani’s point that not much, specifically the authenticity / long-term value of any spiritual teacher or system, can be legitimately evaluated via the lens of a small portion of time — and that “history will show” if there is real value, there.
Then, I was attempting to add the point that this is even more true, when the significant vacillations experienced by most ego-minds, over a given time period – as far as any conclusions reached by a given person, about anyone or anything.
Stated nearly as simply as possible, I hope …
The subject always changes more than the object.
The most important point of all, vis a vis Realization, Awakening, etc. - however - is that what we currently experience and/or see as being the subject (our own ego-mind, the ahamkara, the I-maker) - is actually just another object.
The only actual subject, is.
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
PS - Please note that there are no typographical or grammatical errors or omissions in the final sentence of the post above.
Kirtanman
As well as admiring your ability to type your coherent streams of consciousness at what I can only assume must be 100wpm (unless you have conquered the need for sleep 
) I admire your honesty about clearly reporting this situation… As long as you think for yourself I can’t see any dangers for you.
For me well as I said I have watched some of his video clips which were cool and bought the book which I havent yet ploughed into.
Being honest myself altho’ his stuff sounds good - and its a useful pointer to some high level of achievement if there is some special energy phenomena - there is always a kind of slight jarring note. On the other hand this may be by British reticence/Buddhist-modesty cultural conditioning reacting to some west coast dude 
… for all I know he is incredibly shy and retiring by local standards
There seem three things in common with Tolle:
Well it certainly is if you say you are enlightened and publicise yourself on that basis!
Similar comments from Adya, in the same general “vein”:[/b]
As with Tolle - he finds a partner and next thing you know she is doing most of the teachings and retreats and he is singing her praises 
Again acuse me of asceticism if you will but cf Tolle… over years the online shop gets bigger and bigger…
My personal experience with teachers is that in terms of their message (as opposed to practical tools to use) this phase wears off… after a while you start knowing their verbal answers… kind of you get to know [i]that particular finger pointing at the moon and its time to find a different finger pointing from a slightly different angle…
[Of course with tools/techniques its a different thing as these things are arts that one never perfects].
Anyway Kirtanman - I dont see you being anyones fool. Associating with the wise (and does it matter if they are 90% wise, 95% wise, 99% wise or 100% wise when the rest of us struggle to get to 50%) has gotta be a cool thing to do… better than the average american who I read recently watches something like 5hrs a day tv on average 
Peace
Mike
I’ve got to say, something in me deeply recoils when watching those videotapes, whenever he says something the least bit cute, the audience erupts in greasy giggles and applause. It reminds me of Bob Hope getting laughs without being the least bit funny just 'cuz he’s Bob Hope.
Exploring why this turns me off so much (more with Adya than with Bob Hope), I think it’s two things:
- I worry Adya is in danger of being churned by this dynamic into runny butter. I’m not saying it’s ego, but…I get the feeling he likes it.
- I worry that the more fawning students are never going to get anywhere. If the entire spiritual path is just a skillful means for realizing something that can’t be taught or shown, so it’s all just tools and pointers, then I think one of the most efficacious tools and pointers in any tradition is the Zen Buddhist injunction “If you see the Buddha walking down the street, kill him.” (actually, that’s a mis-translation. A scholar once assured me that it is actually "$hit on his head). The Buddha doesn’t hold the key to enlightenment. The Buddha doesn’t “give” you enlightenment. You must become like the Buddha, not worship him as an untouchable paragon.
There’s something about a teacher earnestly insisting that he is not necessary while he’s being absolutely adulated (“yes! That’s SO insightful! Yes, yes, you’re not necessary! Please…go on!”) that just seems “off” to me. I’m not judging anybody, it’s just my visceral reaction.
Hello Jim & All (<- Including Your Karma :sunglasses: ), Pertinent and valid points; I've simply never perceived the audience's laughter, and Adya's reactions, in the way you described (which doesn't mean anything, other than the obvious: you and I have different reactions to similar Adya-centric stimuli). As far as Adya having some human-level reactions to the audiences enjoyment and/or adulation -- that could be; I dunno. IMO, that doesn't necessarily means that he's less enlightened than some people perceive him to be, unless his reactions come from ego-attachment, which is not part of the enlightened condition ... and imo, and ime (in my experience) - that's a very tough thing to evaluate from outside ("of Adyashanti", in this case). Also, I think longer-term exposure to almost anyone and anything, helps with perception like this (example: people who have only been exposed to me, a little, will often form opinions that people who know me better, may refute, i.e. "He's really not like that; he's almost tolerable, once you get to know him ..." :clown_face: ) --- and I think most of us have experienced something like this. Actually (KIRTANCANDOR MOMENT) :clown_face: - I just got this - and Thanks to all who have helped (the related lightbulb fizzle and pop :clown_face: ) - just as some of the audience laughter, and/or "insipid" video content bugs some of you ..... the entire dynamic of teacher-watching bugs my ego, big-time. Rather than "does this teacher have consciousness and/or information, which can be helpful to my consciousness and/or practice?" - the key question seems to be, "Where is this teacher less than he seems to be? What are his failings?" Not only do *I* viscerally react to my perception of this (I feel kinda like, "Damn - leave the poor guy alone; he's a nice guy, and a good teacher - and as far as I know, he's never hurt anyone, nor does he have an unethical or unkind bone in his body!" And PLEASE Note - I'm NOT saying those things outright or directly, I'm saying them as an illustration of what "teacher-watching" feels like to my sense-of-self, viscerally. Which may well explain some / all of *my* reactions, in this thread. COOL. :grin: And in conjunction with the comments above -- this truly isn't Adya-specific ... I've felt this way regarding criticism of nearly every spiritual teacher I know (because they're all criticized a surpringly equivalent amount of the time, and to a surprisingly equivalent degree, in my experience.) Part of this reaction is based on my own psycho-emotional conditioning, relating to criticism. And part of my reaction is based on my own experience, that focusing on the value which may be gleaned by association with certain teachers / teachings, outweighs focusing on what may be their failings. Example: I know there's a lot of "dirt" regarding the late Swami Muktananda - but that's all I know (about anything other than his actual writings / teachings). Ditto Yogananda. Ditto a LOT of other teachers. I just take in the teachings, find that the things which resonate naturally "stick", and other stuff doesn't. If we (our energy / consciousness), in my experience - we can take in helpful teachings. Other than that, every teacher is just a mirror for our egos. Jim, you said (in another / later post in this thread), that you hope I'm still "speaking" to you (why wouldn't I be? :slight_smile: -- as in: I don't exactly "offend" easily. :slight_smile: ) Though however - per my candor in this post - I'll say the same to you, and everyone (meaning: my goal is never to be offensive -- but simply to "call 'em as I see 'em", in ways I hope are helpful to us all. Peace & Namaste, Kirtanman
Kirtanman, all makes total sense to me. On both sides you’re describing, it’s humans endlessly scratching around. It’s what we do. It’s a waste of energy in the spiritual realm, but a useful neurosis if you’re trying to buy a stereo or choose an orthopedist.
…not that the spiritual realm is a separate realm, of course. Argh…words…
Good point Buddy… My answer to that is simple… In my (personal/distorted perception) there are two camps who get criticised (personally)… (1) the Gurus-Behaving-Badly (and thats another thread); (2) the self-proclaimed Enlightened Ones (eg Adyashanti, Tolle).
If I set myself up as a teacher with the byline “hey I dont know much guys but maybe something makes sense” I guess no-one is gonna pick holes in me…
On the other hand if I say I am fully-enlightened then I gotta expect that I am setting myself up to be judged… Its a totally different claim isnt it… a Tall Order…
If you then start screwing the young attractive female followers, or making more and more money and buying Rolls Royces, or let your girlfriend take your retreats instead (not Adyashanti) or show small incipient signs that maybe you are not 100.00% safely-perfected-for-good-and-might-start-slipping-backwards then people (well some!) are on your case bigtime.
Its analogous to saying “Hey I Am A Perfected Being” - then folks are bound to check you out for that!
Well given the page number we are on you have offered great interest with this one 
yours imperfectly
Mike
Hi VIL:
Well then, here’s another Scriptural quote for your collection.
“Be>still>and know>That>I AM>GOD.” Psalm 46:10
The original Hebrew word (raphah), translated in the Psalm as “still”, means to “let go”…“to cease all activity” of both mind and body…as if becoming “faint” and “weak”, and implies being “silent” as used in this verse. Interestingly, “raphah” also means “to be healed” and “repaired” or “made whole”.
The original Hebrew word (yada), translated in the Psalm as “know”, means “to perceive”, “to learn” or “to discover” by “seeing” or directly “observing”.
Hence, when re-phrased to convey the ancient Hebrew meaning for the modern reader, this verse states “I AM THAT made whole in Stillness…GOD”, or “I AM THAT discovered in Silence…GOD”.
I think that these are more accurate English renderings of the original Hebrew, and resonate more clearly as an ‘Ultimate Reality’ for me. 
Hari OM!
Doc
Hi Meg,
What a fast moving thread… we must be back into Guru-bashing mode! , Or perhaps we have moved onto Disciple bashing mode… even better!
Actually that wasn’t a reference to Enlightenment. That was a reference to Assention. It doesn’t have much to do with enlightenment, except that you have to be enlightened to be able to do it. It’s a pretty cool trick. There is a beautiful description of it in the Bible. It is probably in the Gospel of John (I haven’t got my bible on me to look it up). Check out what happens to Christ after his resurection. There is also a description of it at the end of the Secrets of Wilder novel by Yogani.
Just as an aside, the blaze of divine light bit would be how others would have perceived what happened as Jesus rose up to heaven. The experience from the point of view of Jesus (and for you when your time comes) would have been very different. It just goes to show, how others perceive us is always different than how we perceive ourselves.
You’re welcome… any time.
Christi
Good post, Doc. It seems similar to what Eckhart Tolle talks about and I’ve been reading up on his experience, since Anthem11 mentioned him within a previous post.
I’ve been feeling down, lately, and I know I need to BE, in the NOW, in the moment, where there is only THIS and no suffering is possible, but it’s kind of hard when God takes everything from you (dark night of the soul stuff) and except for that one experience with the Self a couple months ago when the sun was at perihelion to the earth for the year. (I thought it was the moon, but it was the sun). Other than that it’s like walking alone in the desert, compared to years back when my Kundalini first awoke, when I was in siddhi heaven (I can hear the gasps, now, LOL. 'What did he just say?!, LOL, kidding, sort of): 
. Anway, I was wondering if you had any Spiritual Writings concerning the affect of the sun and planets on the soul? Or planetary cycles in relation to the Souls development?:
VIL
Mike said: On the other hand if I say I am fully-enlightened then I gotta expect that I am setting myself up to be judged… Its a totally different claim isnt it… a Tall Order…
Good answer Mike, for gurus in general.
Do you think Adyashanti and Tolle have set themselves up as enlightened? I’m inclined to think that Tolle has, very directly. About Adyashanti, I know much less. But his ‘followers’ openly talk about him as enlightened. So it doesn’t look like it’s a priority with Adyashanti to stop it.
Kirtanman:
the entire dynamic of teacher-watching bugs my ego, big-time
Aha, I knew there was something going on. Well, you feel as you feel when spiritual teachers are scrutinized. How do you feel though if you see a secular schoolteacher teaching a mistake? I mean if a schoolteacher is putting up 1+1=3 on the board, or having the students take down wrong spellings?
That actually makes me cringe. I get very uncomfortable. I feel that something wrong is going on. Whether I am right or wrong about whether the teacher is right or wrong, my discomfort is actually social conscience.
How do you feel when J. Krishnamurti pooh-poohs yogic techniques and practices (including mantras specifically)? I feel like I would feel if I see a teacher, entrusted with thousands of students, putting 1+1=3 on the board and having all the loving, pious students, take it down with love and devotion.
This discomfort has nothing to do with wanting to find fault. If you think it generally does, you should examine that because it could be the reason why teacher-watching bugs you. Anyone who takes a high place needs to be scrutinized highly. It’s our social duty.
Hi VIL:
You may find these articles interesting and informative in regards to your questions.
www.2012.com.au/cosmic_maya.html
www.esotericastrologer.org/EA%20Essays/EAintro.htm
www.amrasspirit.com/articles/Deployment.doc
Hari OM!
Doc
Hi Christi - yes, I’m aware of both ascensions to which you refer. One is definitely a work of fiction; the other, well, who knows. But both were the apotheosis of an awakening, and as such had everything to do with enlightenment. I’m sure that I sound like a guru- and ascension-basher, but honest, it’s not my intention to sully the characters of those for whom I have great respect, Adyashanti being one of them. He’s a great teacher to me at this juncture in my life, as is my upstairs neighbor, who likes to play Judas Priest on Sunday mornings. So many opportunities to expand!
Hi David
I first came across him in an interview with the Buddhist magazine Tricyle in Fall 2004 called ‘The Taboo of Enlightenment’. Despite the fact that this is ‘old material’ the Tricycle website has it as ‘subscription only’
However I also found a snip of the interview for you at http://www.nonduality.com/hl1892.htm (big webpage - if you search for Adyashanti I think its at the second mention). To give you a flavour (and perhaps narrow down one minor uncertainty about the universe )
If you read the article you will get a feel that the last comment is in the context of the Buddhist view of no-self in the first place (ie nothing to get/be enlightened).
I do recall the whole article was an interesting read… at the time I recall my reactions were (a) that this kind of ‘enlightenment for all’ democratisation and de-tabooing was a good thing, whilst on the other hand (b) arguably it fits in with the general history of Zen lowering the bar as to what enlightenment is, watering-down the definition (eg the whole satori concept (not one the Buddha ever mentioned)).
HTH
Mike
Hi to all!
I found this article about Light Ascension pretty interesting. Perhaps some of you will, too!
www.lightascension.com/
Hari OM!
Doc
Been meaning to address this. I’d like to check a couple of things to see if I’m in synch with what you’re describing. I’ll phrase it as questions, just 'cuz I can’t think of another way. I’m not trying to lead the witness! I certainly won’t be disappointed if you don’t agree on any/all points:
You experienced, I’m guessing, that what “got” you to the all-the-wayness was bhakti? And this vastly improved your realization of what bhakti is? And what you experienced on the other side of this (so to speak) was a kundalini opening? And that what got you there wasn’t a pushing, but, rather, a courage to cease a lifelong habit of pushing THE OTHER WAY?
If not, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts. Hey, i’m interested regardless!
Thanks, Doc, I’ll check out the links:
VIL
Yogani, it’s taken four days of mulling over your posting to get straight in my head where you’re coming from with some of your terms and distinctions. “Crossing over” was a particularly confusing term for me.
I get it now, though, and it makes total sense to me. You’re talking about dualistic versus non-dualistic APPROACHES to an awakening to non-duality. And by “crossing over”, you mean a hybrid approach -crossing between dual approaches (e.g. yoga) and non-dual ones (e.g. vedanta, advaita, jnana, Adyashanti). It’s strange that i was confused about that, as I’ve tried to use such an approach myself!
Those who’ve shared my confusion will hopefully get something out of a clarification I’ve posted here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2315
Hi David,
Is it a problem if enlightened beings say that they are enlightened? Wouldn’t they be doing the world a great disservice if they didn’t and just kept quiet about it?
And how do you know that Krishnamurti is saying anything wrong when he says that yogic practices (and mantras specifically) are dangerous for the majority of people, should be avoided and will not lead to enlightenment? The only thing that would conclusively demonstrate that Krishnamurti was wrong is if there were now loads of people who have practiced yoga, and mantra japa, and are now enlightened. Who are all these people who have practiced yoga and are now enlightened as a result of their practices? Can you name any of them?
Christi
Hi Christi:
Excellent point! It has been said that a tree is known by it’s fruit, right? OK. We see the ‘trees’, but where is the ‘fruit’?
Hari OM!
Doc