To give him some due credit, Adyshanti’s methodless method here is streets ahead of Krishnamurti’s pathless path number. Adyashanti gives the learner much more leeway and does allow a certain amount of foothold in terms of offering a practice. And I see Adyashanti as much more open-minded than Krishnamurti and much better informed (the two tend to go together).
Yes, I’m probably being too harsh on Adyashanti. But I’ve been so appalled at what Krishnamurti did to people’s ability to understand and effectively carry out spiritual practices, that anyone who even looks a little bit like Krishnamurti is going to set me off. Hey, Adyashanti’s name also ends with ‘ti’, just like Krishnamurti!! Any beginnings of a trail of destruction must be rooted out!
The real risk I see with it are along these lines: when he talks like that, that his ‘True Meditation’ has no method, it creates false dichotomies in the students’ minds, between Adyashanti’s methods/practices (styled as not being methods/practices) and other useful methods/practices. This is just an unfortunate and unnecessary obstacle to integration of approaches.
Whenever anyone offers any guidance on how to meditate, they’re offering method. Saying ‘no effort should be made’ is very much offering method. Saying ‘do not seek’ is offering method. Sure, the method offered may be leading (as it works more deeply) to spontaneous (methodless) meditation, but that changes nothing – that’s also true for the ‘deep meditation’ offered, with honest self-awareness and no self-exceptional semantics, as a method here.
Great insights, yogani, Eitherway, david, and everyone. I learn from these discussions.
That’s how I look at it, david, that it is a process. You can’t go from a to c without going through b. I mean, you could go from a to c, but inevitably you’re going to have to face b, until you realize that that’s not really true either or… okay, not funny, I’ll stop: LOL.
What was funny is when I was at the hospital today. Funny and not funny. My niece was having some problems with her pregnancy and so I brought her to the ER. And since she’s going to be having a baby, in a few months, we were reminiscing about how much fun we had when she was a little girl. I was like, “Do you remember that time that I took you here…” And, “Remember when you did this and I did this…”.
Anyway, the conversation came to a lull. Her legs were in stirrups, so it was appropriate.
Later… the conversation resumed and I said, “Those were really fun times, we laughed all of the time, it seems almost like a lifetime ago, doesn’t it? I guess I really lost who I am in a lot of ways”… And she looked at me and said, “Uncle (VIL), it’s okay, maybe you’re just in a funk”.
And I said, very seriously, “Honey, a funk lasts a week. Fifteen years is clinical”.
Anyway, we shared quite a few good laughs. It was nice to just laugh at ourselves and just be, without expectations, either-way. It was a great lesson of how living in the past can be a wonderful thing while still in the moment and how the reverse can be true; that it is impossible for the mind to unwind the past, good or bad. If it were possible it would have been unwound a long time ago. The attached mind is like that too, thinking that thinking is going to bring it things or unfold things or solve/resolve things. It’s a tool, nothing more or less. Meditation is something entirely different:
Abdul Baha (speaking of the importance of meditation):
“This faculty brings forth from the invisible plane the sciences and arts. Through the meditative faculty inventions are made possible, colossal undertakings are carried out; through it governments can run smoothly. Through this faculty man enters into the very Kingdom of God.”
And since Abdul Baha spent forty years in one of the worst prisons known to man, I’ll take his word that he knows the power of meditation.
And when he was inquired to speak of the atrocities of his ordeal, he never complained but instead said, “There is no prison greater than the prison of self”.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Abdul_Baha_Abbas.jpg/180px-
Another picture of my kindred soul who is being knighted by the King of Britian for promoting peace in the middle east:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/AbdolBaha’s_knighting_ceremony.jpg/250px-AbdolBaha’s_knighting_ceremony.jpg
VIL
I really enjoyed reading this topic…thank you so much for initiating it, Jim. I love Adyashantis books. He is such a bright essence…we are lucky to have him here.
Adyashanti says (taken from Anthems link above):
So…Adyashantis method of no method…which here includes the question “who am I?” … has a goal too: To see/know that YOU ARE (the Eternal Unborn Self).
AYP says: “I am”.
It is not a question; and thanks to Yogani, it is not even one man - it is a fact. I already am. This is why the simplicity of this method is so …able to attract. It starts where we already are. There is no dispute…just the very fact. AYP does not say “true”. It is deep. And there is no end to this depth. It is the amness of deep meditation that is the core of AYP. This amness is the guru available, and personally fitted in variable, dynamic depths, to all. The only effort required is the willingness to “sit”…and the whisper of “I am”. The rest is up to the resonance. You can of course add the other limbs of Yoga that AYP offers…but first and foremost is “I am”.
So. Not Two. Not “who am I?”. Just… I am…
O.K. so I was wrong about Adyashanti staring at walls… but if he doesn’t, plenty of other Zen folks do. Actually I don’t see his “methodless method” thing as being that different than the wall staring thing.
It’s like the wall staring thing, without the wall… very Zen!
Hi Eitherway,
I think you are right. I met a man only a few weeks ago from Spain. He told me that he had spent many years meditating, but now he had stopped completely. I asked him why he had stopped and he told me that there was no need to meditate when there was no one left to be meditated. My heart sank. I felt like he was really starting to get somewhere, but now he was stuck. There was nothing I could say. He thought the job was over, when I could see quite clearly that it was just beginning. He seemed to have reached the stage of dispassionate awareness (abiding in the witness self). He had practiced in the Zen tradition.
That’s a hard one to answer… I mean, how can anyone know? We can only speculate. One thing we do know is that Krishnamurti said that humanity would not be ready to understand his teachings for another 50 years. I don’t remember the exact date that he said that, but it was probably about 49 years ago.
I know… I know, there’s nothing worse than someone saying: “I’m going to tell you the truth, but you won’t be able to understand it for another 50 years, so, sorry and all that. It’s just that you’re not ready yet!” What could be more annoying?
Anyway, he said it, and guess what?.. No one does seem to understand him, so maybe he was right!
But he got it all down in printed form, and video too (or someone did), so it will all be there when we are ready.
In the meantime, he has been one of the most inspirational people in my life, and he continues to be so. I would rank him among the greatest spiritual teachers who have ever lived. I wonder how many people he has also inspired to follow the spiritual path? I know what you are thinking… “but, he said all these spiritual practices are a load of nonsense?”… well, I don’t think he did. I don’t think he did at all, I think he was saying quite the opposite. I think he was criticizing the way people are doing spiritual practices, the blind following of tradition, faith and ritual, without awareness. He was saying: “listen, watch, notice, pay attention, and the whole mystery of life will unveil itself”. If someone actually did what he suggested, then their whole life would become a spiritual practice.
I am sure many have misunderstood him, but then, how many misunderstood Jesus?
Hi David,
In the interview he mentioned that he has got his wife and his mum on the lookout for any signs that he is straying from the true path of selfless service to humanity (my words, not his). I have to confess, I did think… WHAT? WHO? I mean, no disrespect to his wife and his mum, but wouldn’t someone slightly more impartial be like, a better choice?
Maybe you could do the job more credibly. You seem to be quite impartial, and you know all the signs to look out for, and pitfalls to avoid! And you seem quite passionate about the task, even before you’ve started.
For once we are in total agreement. 
Also, the use of the words “True meditation” makes it sound like all other meditation practices are “False”. Sounds like the sort of thing that could stray easily into sectarianism. Did he also say, “The only way to my Father is through me”, or was that someone else? 
Hi Vil,
You know, I can relate to what you write. I used to laugh a lot when I was younger, I guess I took life on a very superficial level, and just messed around. That’s one of the things about being on a spiritual path… it kind of sobers you up. I started to realize things, like I was a slave to my mind, a prisoner as Abdul Baha puts it. And not only that, but we all are, and that’s quite a sobering realization. It’s the kind of thing that you can’t really ever get away from. Once you’ve seen it, it colours everything. It makes everything a bit more serious, and more urgent. I know you meant it jokingly, but I don’t think you are “clinical” at all… more like, blessed. Waking up is a blessing, possibly the only real blessing there is.
Christi
Yes…
Yet this is why emcs “we are reading the self-inquiry book” (I am bubbling with laughter just by the mere mentioning of that post) was so…so…so…
(remember Shirely Maclain(being the mother of cancer ridden Deborah Winger in the film “Terms of endearment”? 
)
relieving. (I can’t remember what Shirley called it…) It totally sobered me up into great laughter! Not seriousness that I have identified with for so long. But of course it all starts with the deepening of the superficiality. From…surface to the depths and then the lightness. The feeling that nothing really matters and yet everything matters. Oh God, Christi…luckily the “slave” and the “mind” are not separate. Luckily, we are not slaves to ourselves. We are simply either perceiving slavery (which is the thought up version of freedom) - and as such we are walking prisons…not prisoners…
Or - we are peceiving love - and are as such always openly flowing freely.
What book by Krishnamurti can you recommend? I have read a couple only…
This Abdul Baha…never heard of him. I will have to google a bit…
Thanks for the thoughtful/caring sentiment, Christi:
You’re right, I used the word “clinical” as a joke to take my niece’s mind off of the unknowingess of the situation and put it on me, since it allowed her to relax by means of distraction.
Take care:
VIL
Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement
Note: The Krishnamurti, Meditation and Mantra discussion has be split and moved to:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=0.88&TOPIC_ID=3473
Please continue with that discussion over there.
The reason that every spiritual tradition speaks of The Great Year, The Golden Age, Age of Aquarius, Kali Yuga, The Last Days, New age of Enlightenment and on and on and on is that they know the reality of things.
In other words, a fig is the same in the West as it is in the East without the need of telling a person how it tastes. The difference is percieving this same fruit at different levels of inception. One may see the fruit (future) by looking at the seed (past), while another sees just the tree (present). While still another is able to explain the process of how a seed grows to the stage of fruition. Since He, as Buddha, has patiently observed the entire process and becomes the fruit itself. Whether that tree be in India or America makes no difference to the Sun, which supports all these chains of life.
If there is no need for progression than the earth would be self-sufficient and would be able to revolve without the Sun. And since we also know that the earth was once something else until it came into its present condition, it will undoubtebly evolve/progress into something else in a future place and time. This is scientifically/univerally proven and one way that the ancients knew that a future age of enlightenment would repeat a past age of enlightenment, supporting the existence of progression/evolution.
These Ancient Powerhouses also knew that Divine Order/Law controlled the entire cosmos, otherwise we would not have the opportunity to experience life. If there were no Order then the solar system would disappear within a black hole, we would be scorched by radiation, or something else of this nature. Take away the animal kingdom and all other kindgoms die. Take away the seed and all other kingdoms die. Take away Order and everything dies.
So it’s not the misunderstanding on the part of these Realized Souls/Epitomes of Law, when they mention the coming of a new age of enlightenment, nor was it ego aggrandizement, otherwise they would not have sacrificed everything to bring others to this same state of awareness or realization of universal law. Self sacrifice has nothing to do with the ego. Sacrificing everything for the spiritual upliftment and progress of the human race is pure selflessness, and I can’t think of anything more self less (pure)than that. To call this the ego is a great error - and is like a child splashing around within a mud puddle who is enamored when he realizes that he’s seen his reflection atop the water and is further wrapt in the simutaneous/internal realization when he hears his voice - realizing that it was he himself that was observing himself the whole time. But where on earth is his mother?
Let’s not mistake the mirage for water or the reflection for the reality itself.
VIL
Sometimes i get afraid that reality is going to put me in this sort of Messiah-esque position where i have to sacrifice myself in a treterously painful way in order to awaken the greater good of humanity. Is this a strange fear for a 20 year old kid to have?
Hi Chsmithe,
Welcome to the AYP Forum.
To answer your question … I’d say that in spiritual circles, the answer is probably “no”, only because there’s kind of a spiritual mythos that lends itself to people identifying with special spiritual identities.
The good news is: this fear you mentioned is based in the mythos of spirituality, and/or the tendencies of one’s own imagination … and not in reality.
The only thing Reality (aka the fulness of your own true nature) may have in store for you is … your own fulfillment. The only variable is how quickly and directly you get to experience it.
And, if you want to experience that (your own fulfillment) … you’ve come to the right place; AYP is one of the best resource-sets available to help you experience this … in reality.
There are quite a few fulfilled/liberated people in the world (still relatively few, but a continually growing number … continually growing because the way is clarified, and de-mystified, and available to all) … and the vast, vast majority of them don’t have anything even remotely “messianic” going on.
Fulfillment/ Liberation/ Enlightenment is actually very, very normal.
The only sacrifice that’s ultimately required is all the incorrect ideas which cause suffering.
I hope this helps.
Again, welcome to the AYP Forum.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Per the title of this thread, I find Adyashanti to be a particularly good example of a “normal enlightened guy”.
Thank you! See i would loove to be so-called liberated and just kind of not be in everyone’s face about it. And this seems natural since being in everyone’s face about it sounds very “egoic”.
Like i would love to be in the sort of position that Adyashanti is in, rather than the position that Christ put himself in.
My question is, why would Christ do that? Why would he go around preaching and saying all these things that basically set himself up for his own crucifixion?
But yea just for some reason i’ve had this very sort of archetypal fear about being too much on the “savior” side of things and just pissing off the wrong people. It’s not like i even want to do this, it’s just i’ve feared that i would just sort of stumble upon this situation somehow.
Hi Cbsmithe,
You’re welcome. “Liberation” or “enlightenment”, or anything else that the simple living from our true fulfilled nature might be called is (literally) “more normal than normal” … because it’s not all mucked up (any longer) with all our conflict-generating and confusion-generating thoughts and feelings.
For instance, I have a “passing acquaintance” with one of Adyashanti’s teachers (one of the enlightened people who helped Adyashanti get enlightened) … again, literally. As in: she and I used to pass each other at Adyashanti’s satsangs (talks/spiritual meetings, if you don’t know the term), and I got to know her a bit when we both volunteered at Adyashanti’s office.
Her name is Arvis Justi, and she’s a sweet, little old lady that no one would ever guess is enlightened, necessarily (meaning: she doesn’t fit the “picture” that many people have of “enlightened person”).
Many of us, early on the path, figure that the enlightened people are the well-known teachers, though probably not all of them (which is certainly true). What we don’t understand is that the majority of enlightened people aren’t teaching in the big public ways that we tend to mentally associate with enlightenment, when we first learn of spirituality; most liberated/enlightened just doing their thing in a low-key way.
The only real difference between enlightenment and “not”, is that, in enlightenment, there’s simple, conscious harmonizing with the flowing of living … as opposed to all the artificial resistance that conditioned ego-thoughts kick up.
It usually takes some practice-time to create the purification in our neurophysiology and psychology for this to be possible … and that’s what daily practices are for.
Concerning Jesus, your guess is as good as mine, really, though I can see some potential reasons (why Jesus ended up being crucified).
For instance, modern leaders such as Gandhi and Martin Luther King felt guided to speak truth and work for truth in a certain way, and by dropping into the flowing of living … they dropped the artificial self-concern for survival of the body-mind, that causes ego-mind to try to protect its ideas of itself.
Both of these men (Gandhi, King), said many times before they died … that if they were killed doing their work … “so be it”; they weren’t worried about it; they had bigger things to deal with than the continuation of a single body-mind.
Maybe Jesus looked at it in the same way.
Also, per King’s and Gandhi’s assassinations, and even some of the violent or near-violent incidents we can all read about or see on the news, every day … people get violent about ideas very, very quickly. In Jesus’ time, this may have been even more true.
And so, as a Rabbi teaching anything than pure Torah Law, Reb Yehoshuah was likely controversial enough to cause the conservative factions (the Pharisees and Sadducees described in the Bible) of ruling Jewish councils (the Sanhedrin) to be quite upset … in the same way that many conservative Christians didn’t care for the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., or that many conservative Hindus didn’t care for Mohandas Karamachand Gandhi. Conservative forces don’t like change … that’s why they’re called “conservative”.
Finally, and I realize this is a controversial idea for some, and I mention it just as a possibility: in terms of historical record, we can’t be 100% sure that all the events of Jesus’ life happened literally and historically as described in the Bible, nor can we be 100% sure that the Gospel authors intended them to be taken that way. Every facet of Jesus’ life works as symbolic instruction, as well as historical.
What I’ve found useful with questions like that, is to ask: how does it help me to be more conscious, present and loving right now?
Awareness of the symbolism of Christ as clarified mind, which connects the original awareness of our true nature (the Father), with the diversity of the manifested world (the Holy Spirit/Mother) … does help me to do this.
Asking conceptual questions about why something might have happened a certain way, especially when we don’t know, and presumably can’t know (unless some highly credible, new historical evidence is discovered) whether or not is happened historically at all … doesn’t help me do this … and so, I didn’t pay a lot of attention to those things, as I moved along my spiritual path.
I sure used to, though; the fact that these things are on your mind is very normal … I’m just sharing a couple of tips that helped me use the “spiritual consideration” thoughts that came up, more productively farther along in my spiritual journey … in case these tips might save you, or others, some time and energy, as well.
Basically: thoughts and feelings about anything tend to be a distraction.
Sure, they happen … but they’re not important to focus on.
Daily practices, presence, loving … these are the things that facilitate liberation.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Basically, it’s all pretty simple … all you’ve gotta do is cast the torch into the lake … ahh … peaceful (maybe only for a moment … but as long as it’s this moment, now … it’s eternal … you know … kind of like … a Peaceful Apocalypse).
PPS- And for anyone who may think that Kirtanman has finally lost it … or finally lost it completely … … click on the link in Cbsmithe’s profile, and check out his band’s music player …
hahahaha wow i totally just had one of those really eerie void of existence moments there for a second when i was reading all those things you were saying about Peaceful Apocalypse. I would have really been disoriented if you didn’t mention my band link because i forgot that i put it in my profile.
Basically, i thought for a split second that some higher universal consciousness was communicating to me simply because i was puzzled about how you would know about casting torches into lakes. 
“Promises of individual enlightenment by such-and-such a time are not a good idea either.”
I think this is funny, and i would completely agree with what you said, but i find it interesting that Adyashanti himself said that he received a piece of information once early on in his life that he would die at the age of 25, and he had no idea what it meant, but that turned out to be the year of his first Awakening.
Now that it is 2012, i feel that this year is my version of that same thing. And i feel that it’s quite valid to talk about since there has been a lot of discussion of a future New Age of enlightenment for humanity. There’s nothing that’s more in tune with that idea than the 2012 and Dec. 21st phenomena.
For whatever reason, something within me from a very early age told me that something huge was going to happen in my life. Later on, about 6 years ago, it manifested into the 2012 idea. For whatever reason a huge light bulb went off within me and i just knew that in some way 2012 was going to be a huge year, if not for humanity then at the very least for me personally (but aren’t they one and the same?).
I guess we’ll find out, now that we are here. All i can say is that i do feel that my spiritual path is reaching a certain apex in this year. The first 10 days of it have been profound and intense for me, in good and in bad ways. I feel like this is the year where i completely break down and transform, but there will be a lot of difficulty along the way. It’s an epic year and i have high hopes for the 2012 vision of humanity as well.